The Fine Line

6 10 2008

Last Wednesday, the Rock Church hosted an informative event about Prop. 8.  If you did not attend that event nor see it live online, I have posted a link to the video below.

The reason our country has been so powerful for so long is because God was blessing this nation.  Our founding fathers (most of them held seminary degrees) created this country with God at the center.  Let’s keep Him there and stand up for Christian morals.

I hope that you will find it informative and will join me in voting “Yes” on Proposition 8.




10 responses

6 10 2008

I’ve got a few problems with Prop. 8 that will keep me from voting “yes” with you.
The first one is that, in its language, it “eliminates [the] right of same–sex couples to marry.” If we believe in equal rights for all people, regardless of our religious beliefs, then a vote for Prop. 8 goes against that belief in equality. “Marriage” is just as much a legal institution as it is a religious institution, and along with it comes serious legal implications and benefits pertaining thereto. To deny homosexuals the right to marry is to deny them one of their “certain unalienable rights.”
Second, I believe that the Church should make its own decisions about what is acceptable and what is not. The State should have little involvement in matters of the Church, especially when it comes to interpretations of the Bible or theology. Note here that I am not condoning same-sex marriages, and it is my belief that churches should not bless such unions; but it is not within the right of the State to decide whether or not churches are allowed to do this.
Anyways, Prop. 8 strips homosexuals of (what I believe is) one of their legal rights, which from a purely political perspective, is unconstitutional.
I hope that other Californians can make the same realizations.

6 10 2008

Every homosexual man and every homosexual woman has the same right as everyone else in California, to marry a person of the opposite sex, no one person has any more rights than any other… do not be swayed by the negative language of the bill, it was deliberately rewritten that way to sway voters into voting “No”.

Marriage was created by God far before our country was. Our founding fathers based this country’s foundation on the Bible and God’s moral and ethical teachings. George Washington himself said “It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

What about a slightly more recent president, Calvin Coolidge said “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”

In 1782 the Congress (yes, shockingly the US Congress) voted a resolution that says, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

The fact that our country has become so very corrupt is no reason to make it any more so. If you think that we should change the definition of marriage so that it is based on a person’s orientation, or who they love, or who they are attracted to, then why not let a man marry 3 women because he is attracted to/oriented towards/loves all three of them?

6 10 2008

Here’s what the wife thinks about 8. I’d like to see it pass, like Chad. However, you can ask even the people who are out there with guns blazing for it, it’s not a big deal, legally. There are civil unions for homosexuals, and these offer the same legal ramifications for them. That made me think, “This doesn’t really matter. We’re fighting over a name.” Granted, I’d really like to know that the state will not be denying marriage licenses for people who want to be known as “Bride” and “Groom” (talk about reverse discrimination), but what’s the difference if we call their unions marriages or civil unions?

Well, to me, calling them marriages feels a little too close to condoning their unions. So if we’re not condoning their unions, then how can we make them legally recognized? Things that are legal are things that are considered ok by the state. I’d just like to see the state of California choose a definitive position. Condone them, or don’t allow them (still, not arguing for abolishing all legal unions, strictly talking about “marriages” here). Doing neither sounds vaguely like arguments of “It’s not affecting me.” Well… it’s gonna.

6 10 2008

Well I guess the point where we fundamentally disagree is my belief that the state should not be allowed to enforce these kinds of rulings upon churches. If there is some pastor of a Christian church that decides he wants to marry homosexual couples, it should be up to him/his congregation/his friends/etc. to help him decide what is right for his church, not the state. I believe that if the pastor is in alignment with the Holy Spirit, he will make the decision to not bless such a union. However, by taking a definitive stance one way or the other, the state alienates that part of the population. What about all the religions with which homosexuality aligns or in which it is at least tolerated? The state would simply be saying to them “you’re wrong” without any justification. Now in a perfect world, every government would be a Christian one and every citizen would be a Christian, but the fact is that is not the world we live in today.
Also, I believe it is entirely possible for a Christian (yes, a Christian) to be sexually attracted to a person of the same sex. That does not mean that that person is a sinner and is going to Hell. Sin occurs when one commits lust or engages in some sexual act with another. So who are we to say that it is impossible for two people to love each other enough to want to get married and share a lifetime bond, while at the same time remaining celibate? Granted, it wouldn’t be the “marriage” outlined in the Bible, but it would not be sinful in any way either, so it shouldn’t be condemned as such.
Anyways, that’s more than enough of my opinion. I am interested to hear more thoughts on the issue, although I will remain decidedly opposed to Prop. 8.

6 10 2008
Tyler Gray

Great discussion. Wish I had checked out this stuff earlier. This is great conversation, and I feel like this is how Christians stregnthen their faith.

Let me start by saying that I haven’t decided where I stand on Prop 8. It is a very big decision, with huge ramifications.

I completely agree with Todd’s comments. I don’t feel that the government should in any way, shape, or form tell people how they should live their lives. I don’t think that it is the State’s place to determine what is right or wrong. I don’t want the government telling me how I should feel, what I should think, what I can say, or what I can do. And if I want these rights for myself, then the only fair thing to do is to give that right to everyone, regardless if their view points differ from mine. I don’t feel that we, as a State, should tell people what they can or can’t do. As long as as individuals do not impose their lifestyle or thinking on someone elses rights, they should be able to do whatever they please. (Todd, great point about other religions accepting homosexuals. The state would be basically saying that all religions that accept homosexuality is wrong, which again, is not for the state to decide.)

This is how I feel about a no vote on Prop 8. The state has, and probably will, force institutions to do things that are against their beliefs, and if they don’t comply, will lose funding, status, or rights. Example, the state tried to force the Catholic adoption agency to give a homosexual couple a child. The Catholic church said no, that went against their beliefs, and they would not do that. The state said that they would remove their funding (basically shutting down the institution) if they did not give the couple a child. The Catholic church closed their doors before the state removed its funding, and no longer offers an adoption process. They had been “in business” for some time. I feel that if this bill is rejected, the state will begin forcing churches to perform ceremonies and other things like this. The state cannot force institutions, or individuals, to do things that go against their beliefs. This is my biggest fear with voting no on Prop 8.

I don’t know what to think on this Prop, either way, I think their are major propblems. I don’t think that voting no on Prop 8 goes against my Christian faith. I still believe that homosexuality is wrong, and a no vote does not go against that belief.

6 10 2008

Christian Anarchy anyone? G-d’s original plan was to not have a state in the first place. G-d tried to talk Israel out of wanting a king. Jesus stood in direct opposition to the Roman and the (Roman sponsored) Jewish state and he got killed for it. Maybe it’s time we focus on having faith in G-d instead of the state. Maybe it’s the time we, myself included, become the church so that we may rightly pray that G-d’s kingdom come and G-d’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Not through the coercion that comes through the state, but through the love we see exemplified in our Savior Christ.

6 10 2008

All in all, I am enjoying the conversation, though. Keep struggling through these thoughts and continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I love you guys.

6 10 2008
Tyler Gray

Ideally, we wouldn’t have a state that governed us. Ideally we could just be a part of the church and we would work together as a church to work through all our struggles.

But there is no way we can go without the state. Not the way we are right now. And I agree, that goes against God’s ideal plan for his world. But that is where we are at. We can’t ignore it. It is the “state” (no pun intended) we are in.

I agree with Jason, love the talk. You guys are great. Don’t know where I would be without you guys. Love all of you. Godspeed.

6 10 2008

Hey Chad, great discussion!

You know where I stand and that is with Yes to Prop 8! Did you and Emily go to the Rally?

Did you go to church Sunday and hear David Barton speak on American History and Christianity?

I loved at the rally where Greg Koukl explained that voting on Proposition 8 is a civil liberty that all Americans have no matter whether they are Christian or not, and that Prop 8 is a secular issue and not a religious one.

Folks are trying to make this a “separation of church and state” issue when it’s not. It’s Christian folks just exercising their right to vote on what is important to them. What do folks want us to do – not be Americans with the right to vote?

Anyway, nice discussion.

7 10 2008

I guess that I believe that people should vote using their morals. I believe that God gave us a conscience so that we can tell right from wrong, and voting that way would never be a bad thing. We have laws against murder, cruelty to animals, prostitution, etc. because our consciences (which are God-given) tell us that these things are wrong. Why is prostitution illegal? Because it is wrong! Abortion as a form of birth control?

Our country has become one that bases its decisions on whether it feels good or not. If it feels good then it is okay. That is nuts. Murder feels good to the psycho, and sex with a child feels good to the pedophile, and they could argue that they were just made that way. We have laws against these things because we KNOW that they are wrong! Alcohol and drugs feel good to the addict, but abusing those is still illegal. Why do we have laws that protect us from ourselves? Now to bring this back to the prop 8 argument. Why should a government change it’s moral compass because the minority has the loudest voice? Even though it is now “politically correct” to vote in favor of homosexuality, that doesn’t mean that it is “morally correct”. I am going to be voting using the Bible (God’s Word) as my compass.

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